Help with some Atlas puzzles

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ben
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Joined: 2012-04-02

For Atlas04:44, your problem is not knowing the filling order, or use what box to fill it.

Again, if you use reverse mode, it's very easy to figure out the filling order.

The first 1241 moves using your moves, then followed by my moves to fix it:

  Moves/Pushes/Box-lines/Changes/Steps/Pusher-lines: 1845/628/180/44/179/704

stopheart at the MF8 forum created a very nice set of tutorials for people to learn Sokoban.
It started with very simple tutorials for beginners. And then followed by many tutorials for advanced players.
Unfortunately, the tutorials are only available in Chinese.

ben
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Joined: 2012-04-02

For Atlas05:37, again your problem is filling order.
You filled the goals in the wrong order.
Again, it's very easy to see if you use reverse mode to see it.

For those not using reverse mode, it's also easy to see.
However, in order to figure it out, you need to do some analysis and know some basic knowledge of deadlock.

This level has a classic example of deadlock goals (or some may say contradicting goals).

(I strongly suggest you to load the level in YSokoban and then press CTRL+R to display the ruler to be able to follow what I am about to explain...)

The goals:
N4, P4, R4, T4, V4
N6, P6, R6,
N8, P8, R8

as a group, form a set of contradicting goals.
In order to fill these goals, they must need an "entry point".
If there's no "entry point", then there's 100% no way to fill all these goals (unless the goals are already filled to begin with -- and if that's the case, then all of these goals cannot be touched)

In this case, the entry point is at S8.
In order to push boxes from S8 to R8 and enter these set of goals,
we need to access the T8 and R9 spaces.
That means, the S9 goal cannot be filled before the set of points are filled. Once S9 is filled with a box, it's no longer possible to fill the set of goals I mentioned above.

And this exactly the problem you're facing here.
You filled the S9 goal too early, as a result, the set of goals I mentioned above will never be able to filled completely.

If you want to learn, go ahead and use reverse mode to pull out some boxes. Once you can pull out the R8 box, then you can stop and by then you should've already figured out the fill order.

I want to stress that all goal-fill-order can be figured out either using reverse mode, or thru analysis of the goals -- but it requires some knowledge about deadlock. Need to know what goals would contradict with what other goals.

ben
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Joined: 2012-04-02

For Atlas06:85, again, your problem is the goal-fill order.

At first, you may argue that the problem is not an issue with goal-fill order. You may claim that your partial moves shows that you know how to fill the goals.
The truth is, the order to fill the boxes you have shown is wrong.

And again, it's easy to see the proper way to fill the goals if you use reverse mode. Starting on either side, and then when you're able to pull open the level and get to the other side, you can stop.

You can also figure out the fill order by doing analysis.

When we have symmetrical levels or levels that have clear contradicting endings -- that is, once you filled the goals, the player is blocked and cannot get out.

In this case, looking at your partials moves, once you filled the top, you cannot get to the bottom part to fill it and vice versa.

The way to get out of this dilemma is, you need to have a return path to the other side after mostly completing one side.

Looking at the level, it's not hard to see that the E6 and E10 goals are the keys.

If you want to fill the top section first (that means end the level at the bottom section), that means you cannot fill the E6 position.
You need to fill all of the goals in the top section, but you have to leave the E6 goal unfilled. Then you go to the bottom section and then fill the E6 goal from the bottom and then finish the level. That also means you need to push a box from the top section to the bottom section first.
If you want to fill the bottom section first, it's a similar idea, except this time it's the E10 box instead of the E6 box.

Since you already know how to push the boxes, I believe you can solve it with ease using the hints I mentioned above.

ben
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Joined: 2012-04-02

For Atlas07:55 serpentarium, this is one of the easiest and brain-less snake type level. It requires almost no thinking at all.
If you didn't mention about this level, I would say this is a beginner level.

I think it's best to just give you the solution to see it yourself on how easy it is:

rrrrdrddLLLLdlUUdrrrrrddlUdrrDDllUUrrdLd
ddRUUluurrrddLLrrddLUllUddddrrUUrrDLddrr
rDullUlddddrruLUluuuurrrrrrddddlLrrrrddd
llllUULLdllUUUUrDldddrrurrddrruLdrrruLL

ben
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Joined: 2012-04-02

For Atlas08:27 dungeon of horror, this is a variation of checkerboard type level.

It's not easy to teach how to solve this type of level.

For general checkerboard levels, it's easy, you can just line up the boxes row by row or column by column or a mixture of the two.
This method works very well for the general solving idea. However, using this method often requires lots of moves and pushes.

Believe it or not. for all checkerboard levels and variations, the best way to figure out how to place the boxes is to use reverse mode.

Here's a quick reverse mode I did.
(you can paste these moves into YASC to see how it's done)

[]uuLurrddlDruurLLLurrLLurrrLdrrLLdddrLuurrrLurrLLurLddddrLddrdrdrruru
rururuuuuullldUrrdUrddllllluLddrUrUUrrrrddllllddUUrdUrrdUrddllllddUUrd
UlldUlddrdR

As you can see, there are still room in this level.

Based on this fact (that there are still room in the level), we can create a much tighter level with either less spaces or add more boxes.

ben
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Joined: 2012-04-02

For Atlas10:82 Four zorro's, not sure what you're really stuck on.
It's very easy to see that it's really four identical levels joined together to form one level.

I will show you how to solve the right-hand side section and you can use the same idea to solve the rest:

LLrrrruLdlUdlldddrruUddlluuurRRldddlllll
uuuuuurrrrrDDrdLdddlluuRlddrruUUUrrrdLul
lddddllllluuuuuurrrrrDDDuuulllllddddddrr
ruuuURR

The moves I have shown above is actually very bad. I have no intention to optimize any solution.

For Atlas10:83 Four zorro's 2, it's just as easy.
I will leave it to you to practice as an exercise.

WayneCa
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Joined: 2014-07-13

For Atlas03:45, please look carefully at the M4 goal at the top.
(that's the same goal that you cannot fill)
This goal can only be filled from the bottom (meaning from inside the tree).

This I know. The part I have not been able to figure out is where inside the tree to store that box until it is time to use it, and how to get it there when the time comes. The boxes filling the sides and bottom of each segment of the tree prevents upward movement of a box once the goals are filled. In addition, as moving a box into the opening of the tree requires being able to access the goal where the problem goal is, this means I must have 2 boxes inside the tree. In fact, it has seemed to me that I will really need all 3 of the boxes (opening of tree, outside tree and one above that) inside the tree to end the puzzle, and I am not able to see how to store them there and still be able to push them up into their goals.

I will study your comments and use reverse mode to see if I can grasp what you are telling me.

I just tried reverse mode using YASC. No matter where I position the pusher, reverse mode puts the pusher in the start position. This position is in the top-most goal above the tree. The box that goes there is not in the puzzle, and there is no way to move it as this is a blocked position with walls on 3 sides and three boxes on goals below it. What would help more is a image of the puzzle with the boxes in question located within the tree where they need to be to complete the solution correctly. I can figure out how to accomplish it from there.

IMAGE(http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-iyis2T7Q2pk/VITDxCQwduI/AAAAAAAAAT0/UBj0o0-CJMA/s320/reverse.PNG)

WayneCa
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Joined: 2014-07-13

For Atlas04:44, your problem is not knowing the filling order, or use what box to fill it.

Seeing the change you made I really feel stupid now. It was right in front of me and I never saw it. I think sometimes I over-complicate things.

stopheart at the MF8 forum created a very nice set of tutorials for people to learn Sokoban.
It started with very simple tutorials for beginners. And then followed by many tutorials for advanced players.
Unfortunately, the tutorials are only available in Chinese.

This makes me wish I could speak and read Chinese.

WayneCa
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Joined: 2014-07-13

For Atlas05:37, again your problem is filling order.
You filled the goals in the wrong order.
Again, it's very easy to see if you use reverse mode to see it.

Once again, it was right in front of me and I didn't see it. It took all of 2 minutes to figure it out once I made notes using the ruler method of determining cell locations.

You are being a great help to me. Perhaps my brain will get out of deadlock by the time this exercise is complete.

WayneCa
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Joined: 2014-07-13

For Atlas06:85, again, your problem is the goal-fill order.

I studied the puzzle after reading your comments and the solution became clear. Using reverse mode did not help as the start position only allowed for E6 or E10 to be moved to E7 or E9 respectively, causing either side to be blocked.

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